5.25 Disc(s) doesn't want to be formatted.

edited July 2017 in Hardware
Just now, I got one of my "5.25 floppies out to try and format one so I can write something else onto it (in this case: Commander Keen 1).

However, both Windows 3.1 "File Manager" and Win Image for 3.1, fail to write it. The disc I used was obviously not write-protected as the notch is not covered with tape or a label or anything. I also put a label over the notch to see what would happen, and Win Image told me the disc is write--protected as I expected, then I removed the label from it. So I know 100% for certain it is NOT write-protected.

20108609_10210106677967633_2781665759173991208_n.jpg?oh=a2779ba482bd2b11131a7ddffd0f6979&oe=5A04DE9F

I apologise for the fuzziness in the image, lot's of light in the room, especially sunlight.

The disc(s) can be read, and programs found on them can be executed just fine, and files can be opened.

I tried formatting it on the Packmate 3, as I thought maybe an older machine may do this better, but I was wrong, it tried to format and then gave a "FORMAT FAILED".

I do have a few other discs, but those are official IBM PC-DOS 3.3 Disc, so I won't be erasing DOS from them. These 2 discs I am trying to format are just blank discs which the previous owner used to back-up stuff and put dollar-store labels on.

I don't know why they can be read fine, but formatting seems to not be possible, considering they are not write-protected?

EDIT: Okay, "File Manager" managed to format the other disc just fine, I think the first one may just bed bad. I'll keep working at it to see what I can do.

Comments

  • You are not using a 1.2mb drive are you? That is a 360k disk and will fail to format as 1.2mb. Formatting 360k disks in a 1.2mb drive is not very reliable. Can you write data to one of the formatted disks?

    By the way, are you British or something? It is spelled floppy "disk" not "disc". I probably should not criticize, I would be lost without a spiel cheekier, but back in the 80s I would have gotten my ass kicked for spelling it any other way. Then that Japanese company Sony came along and stylized the name of their optical DISK media as "Compact disc" - didn't even capitalize the "d" even though it is a name. Confused the fuck (fucc?) out of people. I am aware "disc" has made its way in to some other areas of jargon too.

    Of course, there were the people who used "diskette"...

    (darn, didn't mean to get that off topic, please resume your normally scheduled troubleshooting...)
  • Have you tried a magnet? Those work quite well.
  • SomeGuy wrote:
    You are not using a 1.2mb drive are you? That is a 360k disk and will fail to format as 1.2mb. Formatting 360k disks in a 1.2mb drive is not very reliable. Can you write data to one of the formatted disks?

    By the way, are you British or something? It is spelled floppy "disk" not "disc". I probably should not criticize, I would be lost without a spiel cheekier, but back in the 80s I would have gotten my ass kicked for spelling it any other way. Then that Japanese company Sony came along and stylized the name of their optical DISK media as "Compact disc" - didn't even capitalize the "d" even though it is a name. Confused the fuck (fucc?) out of people. I am aware "disc" has made its way in to some other areas of jargon too.

    Of course, there were the people who used "diskette"...

    (darn, didn't mean to get that off topic, please resume your normally scheduled troubleshooting...)

    What tips you off to it being a 360k Disk? Would be good for me to know for future.
  • Twiggy wrote:
    What tips you off to it being a 360k Disk? Would be good for me to know for future.
    You should really do a little more googling and reading on the subject, but this bit can be a tad confusing.

    It says on the label "Single Sided Double Density".

    In the IBM PC world 5.25" Single Density and Double Density = Low Density
    Single/Double Density refers to the encoding scheme FM or MFM. However IBM PCs never used FM encoding. Both use the same bit rate and use the exact same physical magnetic coating.

    Technically as Single Sided this would be an IBM 160k (Dos 1.x) or IBM 180k (DOS 2.x) disk, but in practice, Single Sided rated disks always have magnetic coating on both sides. They were usually just lower quality batches. On an IBM PC this should format as 360K, perhaps with a few errors.

    RH might refer to 48TPI, or 40 tracks. RH is not a standard designation. The alternative is 96TPI, 80 tracks, which with low density is sometimes called "quad density", however IBM PCs never supported this.

    A 1.2mb 5.25" disk would be labeled "high density". (And would be 96 TPI/80 track, double sided)

    The magnetic coating on a high density disk is different. It requires a higher voltage at the drive head to record a signal, and can hold a higher bitrate signal.

    As a result trying to format a "360k" disk as "1.2mb" will usually fail and formatting a "1.2mb" disk as "360k" will usually fail.

    There is the added problem that formatting a 360k disk in a 1.2mb drive may succeed if the format is explicitly specified, but because 1.2mb drives use a thinner track (the heads are rated for 96tpi/80 track) it may not be readable in a genuine 360k floppy drive (48tpi/40 track).

    ...

    And this is why everyone upgraded to 3.5" floppy drives. :P
  • Interesting, well seeing how both my "5.25 drives are 1.2mb, formatting them as 1.2mb probably won't be a negative for me.

    EDIT: Never mind that, the copy of commander keen 1 I put onto one of the diskettes turned out to be buggy, but when I tried copying keen off of a 3.5 diskette, it worked fine. and detected my VGA card. Turns out the pack mate 3 does have VGA indeed.
  • I used to buy 360k and 1.2m floppies in bulk.
    Without the label, I never found a reliable way to visually tell the difference.
    So I always inked "DD" or "HD" on the bulk disks when I received them.

    Generally, when you format 360k floppies in a HD drive:
    They are reliable in other HD drives.
    They are iffy in DD drives because of the thinner tracks.
    The DD drive might still see residual data.
    When you format the 360k disk in a DD drive, it is read ok in both.

    I use 360k disks all the time in HD drives with no problems.
    But I do not mix these with disks formatted in my DD drive.
  • ^

    got it, so I'll only use 360k discs when transferring very small amounts of data, so probably not fore getting games over to my packard bell 286.
  • Look for the reinforcing ring in the center. Most DD disks have that ring; generally, HD disks don't. There will be some very early DD disks that lack it but those only account for a few percent of the total made. All 5.25" hard sectored disks will be DD; if you find one, trade it with someone who needs hard sectors.

    For the interests of accuracy, there were also 40 track 3.5" disks. Very uncommon in the IBM PC world. The best known variant is the Tandy Portable Disk Drive. Disks formatted by these drives can not be read by 80-track 3.5" drives.
Sign In or Register to comment.